A WRITER'S LIFE Gabriele Goldstone

Welcome To A Writer's Life

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome listeners to a writer's life. I'm your host, Michael Bone, the author of the novel Secrets in the Shadow. This is a place where I'll be in conversation with fellow writers. We'll discuss all things writing. We'll read from your latest works, and we'll explore what happens beyond the test in a writer's life. It's gonna be a page too. Just know it. Along with hosting this podcast, the writing guide instructor is story house, where I share writing tips and lead workshops to help you bring your stories to life. Thank you for listening and being part of a writer's life.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

But my dad had uh incredible war experience. Like my grand.

Waltrout Family History And Nancy Drew

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Welcome, listeners, to another episode of a writer's life. Today I'm thrilled to be speaking with Gabrielle Goldstone, a Canadian author known for her compelling historical fiction, particularly for young adult readers. Gabrielle writes the stories she she longed to find growing up as the daughter of a European immigrant, stories that explore war, displacement, and the resilience of the human spirit. Her novels, including Tainted Amber, Crowstone, and The Kulak's Daughter, and now her latest book, Waltrout, are rooted in the experience of her own family history, bringing to life the harsh realities of war and survival, particularly through the eyes of young women. Gabrielle's work has earned critical acclaim and awards, such as the Gold Moonbeam Award for Historical Cultural Young Adult Fiction. Today we'll dive into her writing process, the inspiration behind her novels, and the importance of remembering history through storytelling. Gabrielle, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

It's such a pleasure to be here. I'm very honored. What was your favorite childhood book or character growing up, and how did it influence your writing today?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Well, without a doubt, it was Nancy Drew. So, you know, Nancy Drew has stood by me, you know, and um I realize that people might not consider her high literature. And in fact, I I learned that they didn't even allow Nancy Drew in libraries for for quite a few years because it wasn't good in literature. But she was definitely my role model, and there are a lot of her books so I could always keep reading.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Lovely. If you could give 11-year-old Waltrout a piece of advice from your adult perspective, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Whoa, good question. And I guess the biggest one is believe in yourself and don't compare yourself to others.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Nice.

Bullying Belonging And Authentic Voice

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Valtrout deals with the harsh realities of her prejudice and bullying. How did you approach writing about these sensitive topics without overwhelming young readers? And do you ever worry about underplaying the severity of such issues?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Um, I I guess um, yeah, that is a tough question. I mean, I I raised three kids and I was trying so hard to give them a quote-unquote normal upbringing so that they wouldn't be tarred and feathered like I sort of felt I was at some points. Um but I I have also volunteered with with newcomers to Canada and I recognize that they also struggle with this. So I want kids to be aware that they have the power to make somebody's day good or bad in their friendships and how they connect with others. Little things.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Do you worry about underplaying the severity of such issues?

SPEAKER_00 4:14

No, I don't want to um minimize anybody's feelings. Um I I've seen bullying in action, I've heard it in action, and I I know how sensitive young people are to the opinions of others. I'm quite aware of that.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Valtrout, immigrant child herself, faces the tension of wanting to fit in, but also staying true to her heritage. How do you think this struggle mirrors the experience of modern-day immigrant children? And do you believe Canada has changed much in terms of cultural acceptance?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, Valtrout lives in two worlds, and and kids nowadays who come from other countries, especially Winnipeg, we're a hub for a lot of immigrants. Maybe Vancouver would be the same. Um, the kids live in two worlds, and and I remember one time I was doing an after-school science program, and this it was during the Syrian um refugee crisis, and this we had this boy from Syria in the class, and I didn't know the new boy's name, and the T and this other boy calls out, oh, just call him Mohammed. They're all called Mohammed over there. And I just felt so I could see this little boy shrinking inside in his seat, you know, and I thought, this is still happening. Like, you know, back in my day, they were DPs that we were trying not to get the cooties from. But, you know, the kids nowadays are still being picked on, and it comes from ignorance, right? And books are such a great way, I think, to let children um explore these relationship prejudices.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

In a story that deals with identity, there's always the risk of presenting oversimplified solutions. How do you handle the complexity of identity and belonging in wild trout?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

The the way to do it is not to look at the character's situation from the outside, but to get into the character and look at it from the character's point of view. Uh, as long as you're staying in that point of view and not being the god on the outside, the the writer who's just describing instead of entering that character, I think that's how you um establish authenticity.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

What sort of practice to explore the complexity of your characters do you do? Are there any sort of other writing things that you do around your characters to understand them deeper?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, I I guess what I do is I I journal regularly and I will focus on a certain character and I'll explore their outlook by just writing it down, you know, how they feel about their relationships with others and how their goals in their life. And so I'll just kind of like journal, journal from a different point of view instead of just my point of view, and that helps me get closer to a character.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

That's really good information for other writers who are struggling with getting to know their characters.

Writing War Trauma With Care

SPEAKER_01 7:12

As an author writing about historical trauma and the immigrant experience, how do you cope with the emotional toll of revisiting such painful history, especially when it has connection to your personal and family background?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, that emotional connection, and I bet you have experienced that too with your work, because that is a very sensitive issue. And in fact, I'm exploring writing a new book, which is still very much in the idea stage about how approach somebody who's been extremely traumatized in their youth. And now I show up as stranger and go, like, whoa, I think I could turn that into a story, like, you know, the nerve of me, you know. And I know with the Kulak's daughter, I had not seen a photo of my mom as a young child until she was like in her late 80s. And when I got this photo, I said, Mom, like, this is you, like, you know, what were you doing? And all this. And she's all she took the photo from me. It was part of a photo calendar that somebody had sent her. She took the photo from me and she says, No, we're not going to look at that. She put it under the tablecloth. And so she didn't even want to be reminded of that past. And here I was digging around in it, like some kind of, you know, surgeon without anesthetic. I mean, yeah, so I had to visit her and then sneak that calendar out so I could look at that loose photos of those traumatized young people, you know? Yeah, it takes a lot of nerve for us to do that to old people who are so affected by what happened and never were able to talk about it. And all of a sudden, I have the audacity to come poke around at her pain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

While Trout explores the challenges of fitting in as an immigrant, what inspired you to write about the immigrant experience in post-war Canada?

SPEAKER_00 9:02

I guess because I grew up feeling a lot of shame and guilt about my parents' involvement in the war. I mean, my my dad had been in the Luftwaffe. He um he had been, you know, one of the people that he was not a card-carrying Nazi, but he had belonged to the Wehrmacht from a very young age. So I just wanted to, I like exploring the enemy's point of view. And I guess it was a way for me to understand my parents and to be kinder to the little girl that I once was.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

The main character of Waltrout navigates two cultures. Why was it important for you to highlight the complexity of living between two worlds?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So many of us do it. We're always trying to fit in wherever we go, and it strains us, whether we come from an immigrant background or or maybe we have family issues at home that we don't want to share at school. And it's my point of writing it was it's we're all broken in some way. And it's if we were more honest about the challenges we have, we can be more open to other people's issues.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

This comes back to your love of Nancy Drew that you had spoken before we started this interview. How did you decide to incorporate Waltrout's fascination with Nancy Drew? And what does this reveal about her character?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Baltrout loves Nancy Drew, and I did a little bit of research into how Nancy Drew is now being perceived. And uh there's three main descriptions that I came up with of who Nancy Drew was and why she has been such a steadfast role model for like oh, about a hundred years now. And and the three things are kind, curious, and brave. And I thought, well, if that's what Nancy Drew emulates, kindness, curiosity, and courage, I mean, that is a pretty strong um message to send to young people today, you know. Nice. Along with a little bit of mystery in that blue roadster that she used to drive. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Vol Trout's relationship with her family is a key part of the book. How did you approach writing the dynamics between her and her parents?

SPEAKER_00 11:17

That was interesting. I had to make when I was going through the editing process with Deb Fraze, the editor, uh, she convinced me to make the mother a little bit kinder than I felt as a persecuted child that my mother was kind of hard on me. And so I did try to make the mother a bit softer. And obviously, if you read the book, her relationship with her father is rather positive. And any older sister who has a younger brother knows the challenges involved in that. So I had fun with all the dialogue in that.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

How does the character of Waltrout's teacher help her grow and embrace her identity throughout the story?

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, I wanted to show that Waltrout wasn't a victim. I didn't want her to make look like you know, like she was persecuted. The teachers were sensitive to the um challenges she had. And I think in English school and in German school, she had great teachers that she really admired, and it kept her open to learning and to education and books, definitely books.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

How did your experience growing up in Winnipeg as a child of immigrants influence the creation of Waltrout's story?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

So this book is um set in the 60s, and in the 1950s, my parents came from Germany, and there was a lot of Germans that came in the 1950s on by the boatload, and the churches became the cultural hubs for these immigrants that arrived. And there was a thriving German community. There was a German club, there was German churches, there was German campgrounds, and we are experiencing the same thing right now happening with um the Ukrainian refugees that are coming. The difference is that the Germans were considered, you know, the war, the people who started the war, so there was not as quite as much empathy. So the Germans kind of hid their, they assimilated as quickly as they could. With the Ukrainian refugees that are coming now, and I've volunteered with several of them over the last couple of years, they are much more um welcome, I think, because they are obviously the victims of the Russian aggressors. So yeah, Winnipeg has had a really strong German immigrant culture, and now I think the retired Germans are all moving to BC.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

It's warmer.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

I have a lot of relatives in BC now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

What was the most difficult scene to write in Wild Trout and why?

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Without a doubt, the most difficult scene to write was the one where she gets quote unquote saved. And I didn't want to I didn't want to hurt people that have the faith. I wanted to I wanted to gently show that uh religion can also harm. I wanted to, I didn't want to offend anybody, but I wanted to show some of the um difficulties in embracing that kind of religion. That was hard.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

How did you deal with it? Because you just said it was hard to write those things. How did you what better question is what do you do when you are writing about difficult situations, difficult moments in your writing? How do you recoup?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

I I try to make sure, like I say, that I'm writing from that person's point of view and that I'm not um putting my own distant view on it. And then I I like what I do is I read my stuff aloud, right? And so and then I show to I have a writing group, so that those are my ways. Like I try to distance myself after I've written it, stay in that character's point of view, so I'm not preaching my values, and then um have my critique group go, Oh, you can't say that, you can't do that. And then I go, Okay, I'll show you what I do next time. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Right, right.

Memory Museums And Multicultural Classrooms

SPEAKER_01 15:23

How do you think Germany's political landscape has evolved since reunification and what challenges or successes stand out to you?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Well, I I um surprised and and grateful for how Germany has dealt with its history. And I think it started in the 1960s when they had these student revolt revolts, and and um they've continued to face their their past. And we have in Canada we have the truth and reconciliation um movement, and Germany has had that too. And I I there's a word for Geltung, um, vergangenheits bewältigung, and that means they have faced their history and they have taught their history to the young people so that they cannot let that happen to them again. I I think Germany's done an amazing job. And and I look at like my mother has a Russian background, and I look at what Russia has done. Since Putin has um gotten stronger, he has closed down the museums that were honoring the gulags and and the the Stalin past. And Germany has made museums out of their Holocaust centers, and Canada is is having holidays for theirs, so for their crimes. And I I think Germany, from what I can see, and I live in Canada, and I've only, I mean, five years ago I was in Berlin, and I was just so impressed with what they've done with their history.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Waltrout deals with the aftermath of World War II and the effects of displacement. How do you think the global refugee crisis today parallels the experiences of families like Waltrouts? And what responsibility do you think countries like Canada have in welcoming and supporting refugees?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Uh yeah, I think Canada has a huge responsibility, and I think we've taken it on. I think we're struggling right now because we don't have the infrastructure to support the newcomers. Um in in post-second world war Canada, there was so much opportunity for the newcomers. I mean, my dad had you know no language skills, and he was very quickly uh able to get a job and and learn new skills in this country. And my parents came with nothing, a bought a wooden box, a chest filled with their belongings, and within 10 years they were buying a brand new house, and another five years they had a cottage, they had you know all the little things that Canadians think is the good life. And I do think Canada has those opportunities for new people now, and we're going through a huge shift right now as the baby boomers um retire. There's going to be a new face to Canada. And I think Canada is doing a great job of introducing newcomers to here.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Ball Trout explores the tension between personal identity and societal expectations. Do you think governments should have a role in shaping or preserving national identity, or should the focus be more on creating inclusive spaces where diversity identities are equally valued?

SPEAKER_00 19:01

I think that the Canadian school system is the place where kids can be exposed to other cultures, to their own history. I would have loved to have read a book from the German point of view when I was growing up in grade school at any point. And I think that we need to introduce more multicultural books into the classroom so that the teachers are aware of where their kids, their students are, are at with the within regards to their family. I grew up learning the British point of view of the Second World War while my father was a retire or was an ex-Luftwaffe pilot. I mean, where in the world was I going to learn about my parents' history? Not at not in school. And I think nowadays the things that are happening in Syria, in in Russia, in Ukraine, um we need to have books in the classroom for kids to read and for class discussions so that they can learn there's more than one point of view on any topic.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Well said. Well trout is set in the 1960s, 60s. What drew you to this particular time period in Canadian history for the story?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Um, the 1960s were, I mean, that was where I was growing up. And so I find the age of 11, 12 to be such an interesting age because you are no longer an innocent and you know there's more out there, and you're just so eager and open to it. So for me, being that age um is an exciting age to write about. I I just really gravitate to that point of view. And the 60s in Canada were such an amazing decade of growth, and there was so much happening in the in the music scene and in the culture scene, um, mini skirts, and I didn't touch on any of that, but the 60s I think had this character that other decades might not really it was a time of change. It was a time of prosperity, and it was just a daring time.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

What message do you hope young readers take away from Waltrout's journey of self-acceptance?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I want Waltrout to carry the message that you are you, the reader, are have a story to tell. This is the message I would like kids to have. You have a story to tell, your point of view is valid, and you have it in you to follow whatever dream it is that you want. And the other message I want kids to know is that a little bit of kindness goes a long way, and we're all in this together.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Nice. As Valltrau deals with heavy. Themes like prejudice and identity, how do you balance those with moments of hope and humor in the book?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

I know that Valtrout um recognizes her her own prejudices against people when she interacts with Marco, who's an East European DP, which is a slightly different category than what she considers herself to be as an immigrant. And so her she has to come to terms with the ideas that she is not just a victim of other people's bullying, she bullies herself. And another time when she's at the summer camp with um her friends, and she excludes one of her friends from an activity that they were planning. And so she is capable, both of those examples are times when she could have been kind or she could have been giving what she wanted to receive, and she recognizes this in herself.

Growing Up Immigrant At Home

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Just to change a little bit, what was life like around your dinner table when you were growing up?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Oh, I love this question. Okay. I've heard this in past interviews. Yes, well, my dinner table, it was red arborite with black flecks in it, and I studied those little black flecks a lot because I was not going to eat those gray green beans in congenital pork fat grease until my parents left the room, and then I could kind of like even my cat kind of dis was disgusted with it, but I would try to put it into the bottom of the garbage can when no one was looking. So dinner at my table was eat everything on your plate. You can't leave until you eat everything, and it was a bit stressful. Were there conversations? Yes. Um, my dad loved to play the devil's advocate, and I've learned that from him. So we would have a lot of arguments, and a stranger might think they were kind of nasty, but they were all in fun. Like, you know, we just like to argue.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

What were some of those arguments about?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Oh, um, as I got older, I remember having an argument, a really serious argument, about Morgenthaler, who was an abortion doctor in Winnipeg. And my father was so angry that this Jewish abortion doctor would be allowed to go work. And I was like totally into women's rights, and we would argue, but we would just go like biking or walking after the supper, like you know, and totally be friends again.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Get it out and move on, hey.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

My my father had a very gruff exterior. I mean, I I guess it came from his past, but he had a very gruff exterior, and my friends would be afraid of him until they got to know him, and then they'd realize he was, you know, he was quite quite a cool guy to talk to.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

What was one of your favorite memories as a child of places that you would visit with your family for holidays? What was one of your favorite memories?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Um, we didn't do a lot of long distance traveling because you know it was more important to save money and pay off bills. My parents were very debt conscious. Um, but we we did do the um trips out and go on fishing trips in the local lakes all over the Manitoba. So those memories are strong in me of fishing, fishing trips.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Did your dad teach you how to fish?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Uh well uh I no, no. I never really got into it. I I got into picking up stones along the beaches and stuff. My brother got into fishing.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

How old were you the first time you went back to Germany?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Oh, I didn't go over there until I was 19.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 25:52

I went on a student work program um through university and I loved it. I was supposed to be there for three months and I stayed for a year. I was gonna I was gonna live in Germany. I was in love with the place.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

What parts of it did you love? What was it that you loved?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Um, well, first of all, I thought it was really cool how everybody spoke German. It wasn't just something. Yeah, I know. And um I was amazed at how easy it was to become more fluent. In fact, the town I was working in um thought I was just from another part of Germany. They didn't understand that I was from Canada, and so I was amazed. I was waitressing in a in a pension, and so I had to speak German to all these tourists, and it was it was really uh I mean, it was my age too. Finally, I had freedom. I was away from this stifling background, and I love Germany, and I was in the town I was working in, and then I would travel and I'd go back to the town and go back to a job. The town I was in was Berchtesgaden, which is where Hitler had his tea house, and about half an hour from Salzburg. So there's so much history there, and that was when I first kind of started rubbing shoulders with the history and the past and the ghosts of the Third Reich. Um, I mean, I worked in one pension where they still had a picture, dare I say this, of Hitler in their office.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

So that was that was my beginning, my introduction to all the stuff I started learning about later.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

How old were you when your mom started sharing her war stories with you?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Um, or well, she might have shared a little bit, but I was never listening in my earlier years. When did you start listening? Okay, when I started listening, I was a mother by then. So it was after my dad died. My dad died in '93. And that was when I realized that my parents weren't going to be around forever, so I better start listening.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

As a child, you got glimpses into your mom's life?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah, I got glimpses into it. I I mean, you know, she was always worried about being hungry and bugs, you know, any kind of bugs would drive her insane because she had experienced a lot of bugs in her past, which I didn't know. But one time my cat thought fleas, and you'd think we were like, you know, all gonna die the way she was reacting to the fleas. And even even like, you know, she was worried that um travelers would bring bed bugs and stuff, you know, because she'd experienced that. So food, bugs, and um we were not rich, but my mother was just, you know, I didn't have nice clothes, and we cooked a roast on Sunday. That meat lasted all week, and so it was those little glimpses of the past. I remember one time wanting to watch a war movie with her, and she was like, No, no, I can't watch that. Like, and she left the room. So I knew there was trauma in her past, but as a as a little kid, I was more embarrassed about her. I didn't really want to know much about it.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

For me, I grew up with my mother's war stories, and I kept thinking that war happened at night. She lived in Schlesien and had to flee from the Russians. And so, as a as a kid in the mid-60s, early 70s, I kept thinking war was at night. And her life stories, her stories really influenced me in my writing.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Did she make you feel afraid?

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I'm not sure if I was afraid. I just thought that was the world. And I lay awake at night trying to figure out how to stop war. I desperately wanted to solve the problem of global war as a young child. And I remember being in my bed and just thinking, how can I stop this? How could I stop this? And I thought, okay, we know there's world leaders, and world leaders cause problems. Uh, they create war. And then I thought, I know, instead of war and murdering one another, I thought, if they would play checkers and whoever won at the checkers games, that's who got whatever they wanted. Play checkers before you pick up a gun. Did you tell your mom that story? She must have laughed. No, I never shared that with my mom. I did record a lot of my mom's stories, and it's fascinating to see how much of her life influenced my life and my desire to understand. And it's always that question: why? Why do these people commit these atrocities?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

It's hard to really appreciate how big an impact war is. That second world war. I mean, it was all-encompassing. I mean, my father spent five years in a Soviet POW camp, and you talk about playing checkers to solve the war. Well, my dad played chess with a with a camp commandant to um avoid hard labor in some of the different days. But my dad had uh incredible war experience. Like my grandfather had been injured in the first world war, and so his father had been a disabled veteran, and how he survived that, there was so much bitterness. There was so much bitterness on my dad's side of the family that they never talked about anything. And even when I went to visit them now in 2019, just before the pandemic, um they would um show me, oh, this is this is where so-and-so got raped. And I go, What do you mean, raped? And she goes, Well, she was seven years old. She was supposed to entertain this soldier who had returned from the war, both his legs have been shut off, shot off, and she was supposed to entertain him as this little seven-year-old, and he raped her. So this is the kind of stuff that they had repressed. And and and I just found my grand my father's side of the family in northern Germany so morose and and kept keep to themselves. And I just thought they have so many dark secrets that they are ashamed of or you know, that are just too awful to reveal. And that's part of their history, and I can see that happening in Russia now. Like, I feel so bad. This sounds terrible, but I feel so bad for those Russian soldiers being coerced to fight against Ukrainians. And that's that's sort of like my dad didn't know when he got his airplane license just because it had a great uniform and was like a babe magnet, his ex-wife told me. Like my dad didn't know he was gonna end up doing the things he was forced to do, you know. So I think that Germany um has officially done a lot, but that families still have a lot of healing inside these generations. A lot of secrets still. But you know, there are that generation, like you said, your mom died three years ago. So those stories are dying and then they're gonna be gone.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah, and I think that's why it's so important to write historical novels because it's an easy way to digest difficult and approach difficult subjects. And it's so important to record and write down our parents' stories because I know for me that my mom and my dad's stories, even though I don't really know any of my dad's stories, affected myself. And so it's a better understanding of who I am. Where did I come from? Why and what happened in a really dark chapter of life, you know, in history.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, uh, I mean, if we don't let those secrets out, they just continue to dig at us. And um, just because we don't talk about it doesn't mean they don't have an effect on us. But my I know my brother is annoyed with me. He goes, Are you still writing about those old days? Like, he's like, why you keep exploring that stuff? And and other people tell me, like, well, you know, if it's fiction, then why it's not even real, it's pretend. And I go, it's fiction, but it's exploring real events. I mean, people that don't read fiction will never understand why. Why do people watch movies? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Did your mom find any healing when you started to actually listen to her stories?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

My most recent book, Crowstone, um, one of the characters in it just died last year, and she was living in Kelowna, and so I had warned her that this was going to traumatize her, this book. But she did read it and she said it was pretty close. I mean, she said it wasn't quite on, but I mean it'll never be right on because it's not supposed to be right on, you know. But she said it was was she was amazed at all the research I had done to get it on. And right now I'm rereading, I'm reading more books on that topic. I'm thinking, yep, okay, I got that right. But yeah, that is what how I saw it, and this other book is kind of substantiating that. And so I I do think I made a lot of um good choices in the details. I I but it's it's wearing, like, you know, it I think I put in the in the afterword for Waltrout that having written like four books now about the Stalin and the Hitler years, it was a very dark place. So writing Waltrout, which is totally Nancy Drewish and in Winnipeg, was such a a fun thing to do. But that was a break, and now I'm trying to get a ghost story published, which is set in Winnipeg in Manitoba. But uh I'm already yearning to go back to those war stories because there's so many interesting things that have not been told. It's true.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

How does Valtro fit within the bordered themes of your body of work? And what can readers expect next from you?

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Part of the fun of writing Valtrout was that it was a continuation of my mother's life. So if my first book, The Kulak's daughter, was about an 11-year-old girl um being exiled to Siberia from her Kulak father's farm. Well, Vultrout is like a bookhand, it's about an 11-year-old girl living in in Canada who is the granddaughter of a Kulak. So that theme has stayed through, those characters have stayed um there. And if there's one thing that defines my earlier books, it would be homelessness, and Valtrout now. I mean, part of the the plot in Valtrout is that they get a new home in Canada, which ends up being a show home, which is really important for Valtrout's mother, who has always struggled with homelessness. So those are the themes, like that age, 11 at the beginning, and 11 now in Canada, and the homelessness throughout all five books.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Did your mom ever read any of your novels?

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Well, my mother's English was never very good. She had a very low education. She, I don't think she read it. I read parts of it to her, but she at uh when she went into a full-time care home, she took copies of the book with her. And she would try to sell it, like it was, I think, $9.99 as a paperback. Well, she would try to she decided I wasn't selling it for a good enough price. So she would pull it out of her drawer to whoever came in there and try to sell it for $35. Go, Mom! She's not totally right, but she says, like, does that book had her her picture as part of the cover? No, she would never have read the whole book. You know, the only thing she watched on TV was The Young and the Restless.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

And did you have discussions about her life? Would she have reflection on it? Was she able to broach those subjects?

SPEAKER_00 38:23

She was always very emotional. So she could not talk about the big pictures, she could only see it from her very narrow point of view. Although I I did when I was collecting her stuff out of the house, I did come across she had had a copy of the um book called Stalin's Daughters, 20 Letters to Stalin's Daughter or from Stalin's daughter. So I was surprised that she had actually bought a book because my my dad belonged to the German Deutsche Buchgemeinschaft, the German book club. My dad had a lot of books, so like that's my German side of the family, and that's my Russian side of the family. And and so my dad did a lot of exploring of his history, trying to understand what had happened. But my mother was not a strong reader. That's why she poo-pooed my reading, you know. She rather than try to learn herself, because she's too busy making pickles and stuff, uh, um, she poo-pooed my my my time spent reading. And I think it was because she was jealous of my reading.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Would you do us the honor and read an excerpt from your novel, Val?

Reading Show Homes From Waltrout

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Sure, I'd love to. Um, I was kind of wondering which which little excerpt I would do. And so because the theme of homelessness is um a part of the all of the books that I've been writing, I I think I'll read chapter seven, which is like the close to the end of the first section. The book is kind of divided into four sections of eight chapters each. And so near the end of the first section, there's a chapter called Show Homes. Friday, last school day of the week, also feels like the longest. Not even the memory of Pappy reading from my new Shaherazadi book last night makes the day any shorter. What do I have in common with an Arabian princess anyway? I do my best to be invisible. Eventually, the final buzzer goes. It's my turn to stay late between the blackboards. Any plans for the weekend? Miss Maple asks as she shoves papers into her briefcase. Just Saturday school tomorrow and then church on Sunday. I stand on a chair to reach the top of the boards. It feels good to stretch and erase everything. More school, Miss Maple looks up. On the weekend, I nod, wishing I could erase my words about the coming weekend, just like I did the chalkboard words. It's best to keep my two worlds separate. I jump off the chair and admire the cling boards. Done. Can I go now? I'm eager to leave, but grateful for the opportunity to avoid other students, especially Marco on the walk home. Miss Maple frowns. Can you speak without scratching the blackboard of my sensitive English ears? Pardon me? You mean may I go now, don't you? Her raised eyebrows drop as I stammer my correction. Then she glances at the plain blackboards and nods her approval. Of course you may go. Away with you. Just don't forget your English over the weekend. Outside, Marco lingers near the door. Finally, you want to hang out? He grabs my arm. Leave me alone. I shake myself loose from his grubby hands and run, but the feel of his cooties lingers even as his words fade. You're late, Mammy says as the back door screen slaps shut behind me. Don't bother changing out of your school clothes. Why? What's going on? We're going to visit some houses. Mammy grabs a dish rag and wipes chalk dust off my skirt. Majin, you need to be more careful with your clothes. I'd rather she wipe away the cooties still prickling my arm than the innocent chalk dust. What? I'm confused. Visit what houses? Sunny peeks around the corner from his bedroom, his face red, his eyes swollen. What's going on? They're selling our house, he sniffs. I'm not going. I'm not going anywhere. Nobody said we're moving. Mammy looks from me to him. It costs nothing to look. It's your papy's idea. And he shared it with me already. I grabbed Mammy's rag and run it up and down my arm. You mean it's true? We really might move? Don't sound so happy, Sunny sniffs. That means our friends will be far away. I'm not going. Mammy shakes her head. Nothing is decided, children. Nothing. Pappy's truck rumbles into the backyard parking spot, and Mammy looks up the sink window. Just let Pappy wash out. Maybe you better eat something quick. I'm not hungry, I say, handing back the rag. Me neither, says Sunny whines. Mammy shrugs and focuses on Pappy, who strides up the sidewalk whistling. We talk to the agent, Mammy calls to the screen door before he's even at the door. He's meeting us there. Yeah, yeah. Kids ready? Sunny wants to stay home, I tattle, forever. He'll change his mind soon enough when he sees the new houses. Pappy tossles Sunny's brush cut. I will not. I like my room. And I'll skip ahead a bit until I get to where they're actually in the house. And uh the agent doesn't seem bothered by Mammy's stubbornness. Well, follow me then. House number three is a bungalow. I'm sure you'll like it. A bungaloo? Sunny's thinking it's a funny word. We're moving to a bungaloo like an igloo. Bungalow, I hiss at him. Don't sound so stupid. But Sunny doesn't care. I don't care either. Not really. The adventure of picking a new house is too much fun to waste an arguing with this stupid brother. Now this I like. Mammy's face voice is full of awe when you step inside the bungalow. Above us, a bumpy ceiling twinkles approval. Looks good to me, Pappy's eyes twinkle like the ceiling. Most important, your mammy likes it. What do you think, Wally? This time he it's my hair he tossles, and I let him. I shuffle off my shoes and twil twirl into the living room. Then I remember the agent and shift my dance into a saunter. Sunny plops down on a big recliner. What's on TV? Behave yourselves, Mammy whispers in German, of course. The agent smiles. Your children are a delight. Mammy shakes her head at me before she follows Paper. And the agent through the living room, dining room, and into the kitchen. Their voices travel to the living room where I still stand. They talk numbers. Square feet. Square feet? Sunny asks. What are those? I'm about to explain, but Sunny goes on. I only see stocking feet. His big toe wiggles out of a sock resting on the recliner's built-in foot rest. Even Pappy is the hole in the heel. You're so clueless, I tell him. Someday you might learn. Then again, I'm too excited to really be bothered by Sunny's ignorance. Do you think we'll really move into this house? Maybe. I'm wondering the same thing. So I think I'll quit. Oh, just a minute. Let me read one little more scene. They're looking at the at the furniture in the in the bedrooms. I checked one already. It's blue, not for a princess, but for pilots like Pappy. Show me. The blue room has airplanes on its bedspread, but I'm pretty sure they're not younkers like Pappy used to fly. Did he drop bombs? Did he kill people? I'd bite my lips together and frown. Don't you think Pappy would love this room, Sunny asks? Why are you looking so confused? I'm not confused. I'm just thinking. About what? I think Pappy would hate this room, Sunny. He might give him nightmares. Nightmares. About what? Never mind. Besides, it's too small for Pappy and Mammy. It's for children. Sunny grins. I guess it'll have to be my room. I can hang up my model airplanes in here. With arms stretched out like an airplane, Sunny zooms back out to the hall. I'll quit there.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Well done. You've spoken about growing up as the daughter of European immigrants.

Routine Rejection And Needing To Write

SPEAKER_01 45:32

How did your own experience as an immigrant child shape the stories you chose to tell, especially in Waltrout?

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Um, I guess because I grew up looking for, I mean, I think a lot of us look for our reflection in books. We read the kind of books that we hope will mirror some of our own experiences. And I mean, I did a uh an MA in German literature looking for my stories, and I never found them. And so writing about Waltraut was just my way of saying, this is what I went through, and take it or leave it. I mean, it's not a good experience or a bad experience, it's just my authentic experience.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Nice. What has been the biggest challenge for you as a writer, and how did you overcome that?

SPEAKER_00 46:22

My biggest challenge is being a writer. My mother, you know, told me reading was Brotloser Kunst, writing was Brotlose Kunst. Uh, I've never had a career related to writing. I I I wanted to be a writer. I knew that being a writer was going to be a very difficult way to make a living. So I got myself, after getting a master's degree, I got myself a teaching degree and realized that teaching would suck all the energy out of my out of my day. Because I also had three kids. And so I became a letter carrier just so that I could um have time to still pursue my writing. I thought if I have a nice, boring job, I'll have some energy left to do what I really want to do because I agree, it is a Brotlose Kunst. I haven't made a lot of money, but I just have this urge that I can't stop, that I have to write.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

How has your writing evolved over the years? And in what ways has your personal growth influenced the stories you choose to tell?

SPEAKER_00 47:24

I think like Waltraut, I'm no longer trying to please people, I'm now trying to be honest. And I think that is um the way my writing has gone. I'm no longer writing for the market, I'm writing stories because I'm getting old. And when am I gonna write the stories that really mean something to me? If I keep chasing this market that doesn't care about, you know, anything except making money? I mean, if I I don't think even publishers want books that aren't authentic. So trusting my own voice only happens by writing and making mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Can you describe a typical day in your life as a writer? And do you have any rituals or routines that help you stay focused and inspired?

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Well, even when I was working, and I've been retired 10 years now, uh I would always write before I went to work because that way, no matter what happened during the day, I had done my spiel, my my writing, my my holy time at the computer. So that was how I wrote my first two books, and then um then I retired and I had all this unstructured time, but I can't write eight hours a day. So usually I just have excuse me, I still have this morning time that is my writing time, and you know, four hours max, and that'll include editing and um reimagining. But um 10 to 2 is my writing time, and then the rest of the day happens. So I feel very lucky to have that kind of structure and opportunity. But it takes self-discipline to not let people say, Oh, well, let's meet for lunch or whatever. I go, like, you know, after two, I can do whatever. Great.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

What inspired you to become a writer and how did your journey into the world of storytelling begin?

SPEAKER_00 49:26

My whole life has been focused on the printed word. Even when I went to church, everything was about this book called The Bible. And we would sit in church and listen to a minister tear three sentences like a Bible verse. He would talk about it that for an hour, and I would be like so amazed at how three sentences could have so much meaning, and that was part of my realization that the printed word had power, and then of course, I was totally into Nancy Drew, and I knew that had power. And um I always felt like words were magic. That for me, that was always a big draw. I loved words.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

What has been the biggest challenge for you as a writer, and how have you overcome it throughout the throughout your career?

SPEAKER_00 50:19

I have, I think I have tremendous self-doubt. I also have had a lot of challenges in in my non-writing world with um my family. My husband uh had a brain injury and couldn't work, and then he had other issues. And so, yeah, so it's been a struggle to to let myself have the indulgence of writing when I could have been making more money working overtime or something like that. And everybody, even my mother, like and my family, nobody else believed in my writing dream. Nobody encouraged me.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

If you could spend a day with any of your characters from Valtrout, who would it be and what would you do together?

SPEAKER_00 51:06

I would love to. I have lost contact with some of the people that inspired characters in that story. I would love to reconnect with some of them and just go back to summer camp and um I don't know if we'd go skinny dipping, but on the campfire and um just talk about how our lives have been since those days.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

Who was your favorite character to write and why?

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Favorite character would have been I mean, I did have fun with Squirmy Ermi. Um yeah, I had I had fun writing about her and I um my favorite character. I had fun making uh Herr Vault Herr Miller into this villain. You know, it's kind of fun writing about bad guys. And I picked the name Miller because there were so many Muller's, it's a very popular name, so I you know I thought, well, I don't want to like make anybody feel like that's a bad person. It's just a common German name. But I I I yeah, I I kind of had fun making him into the bad guy.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Who was your least favorite character to write or hardest and why?

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Okay, um Tanta Erna, who's um somebody uh counselor during the summer camp chapters. She um I I wanted to show that she was disliked because she was so strict, but that there was a reason why she was so strict. And I and I I thought I don't want to make a strong connection, but I think of the the nuns that ran these these residential schools and seemed so heartless. And I think what made them so heartless? Like, what is the story of those those residential nuns and what is the story behind the Tanta Ernas that are so null nonsense? Like, what made them that way? So that is what intrigues me. Because everybody has a story, even the mean people. Yes. What are you working on now? Um, I've been polishing up Ready for Submission, a ghost story, a middle grade ghost story. And the basic it's set in the in the ruins. We don't have a lot of ruins in Manitoba, but it's set in some of the ruins that used to be a summer camp for disabled or dispoor children in the 1930s. And we've done a lot of family camping out there. So those ruins have always inspired me. And the theme of that story is that holding on to the past is unhealthy. You have to grow and change. So don't know if I'll find a publisher, but I had fun writing it. Your children, do they read your work? Well, they say they make every intention to, but I I I have three kids and I know that my older daughter does read my stuff. The other two it's there's not enough Harry Potter in them. I don't know. I don't I I I I know they don't mean to be rude, but it's not a high priority, so they just have it on their shelf.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Do you have any advice for people who are looking and wanting to be writers?

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Well, I'd say get a have a decent day job and search for the stars and you'll end up on the moon. Like, you know, like you have to fake it till you make it. It's nobody said it was gonna be easy, but that doesn't mean you can't do it. Like, you know, just persistence.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Is there anything else that you would like to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Well, I would just like to say that writing a book is um a personal thing, and if you have to write it, you have to write it. I just feel that writing is not optional for a lot of writers, and it's hard. I think the publishing field in Canada is so challenging, and the publishers themselves are struggling to survive, and don't take it personally. Like, that's what I'm learning is not to take it personally when I get a rejection and to get used to rejection is the name of the game group.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Is there anything else, any other subjects you would like to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 55:35

Uh no, I I I wrote down these words Schadenfreude Kwasselvasser Leberwost. And I was so happy to write a book that I was able to fit those words in. That's all I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Yeah, thank you for a lovely interview. It was really lovely and so much information. Thank you for letting us into your life.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Thank you so much for letting me uh listen to these podcasts while I walk my dog in the cold winter nights in Winnipeg. You really warmed up my um evenings, and they're so interesting. And yeah, so just you're doing a great job. And I love that little jazz music at the beginning, it makes me feel so sophisticated.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

Oh, that's good. That's that's

Where To Find Gabrielle's Books

SPEAKER_01 56:21

good. Uh, can you tell the listeners where they can purchase your books? And also if they want to learn a bit more about you, how they can do that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Uh my books um are available uh common online real retailers. And uh here in Winnipeg, um McNally Robinson carries it, and also in Saskatoon, and I know that libraries are carrying it now. And I think chapters indigo, it might not be on the shelf, but they let you order the book. And I I'm online at GabrielGoldstone.com and I blog, I try to blog at the end of every week about different topics relevant to the history of researching or other similar topics.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Wonderful. It was a pleasure interviewing you.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

It was so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Thank you for joining me on this episode of A Writer's Life. Have you dreamed of being a writer? Have a memoir or story or book you've been longing to write? Now's the perfect time to start. At CoStory House, I share guidance and lessons to help you master the craft of writing by hands-on support. I offer online guided writing workshops through CoStory House. You don't need firewriting experience, just a passion for storytelling and a desire to learn. For more information on these workshops, go to www.costoryhouse.com. And if you've enjoyed this podcast and found value in these conversations, your support is truly appreciated. You can buy me a coffee to help keep a writer's life going. It's a simple way to support the show and ensure I can continue bringing you inspiring interviews. Thank you. See you in the next episode.